Everything That's Wrong with the American Auto Industry

[00:00:13] I'm John Lund Cove and I'm Jake Fisher. So seeing as this podcast is going to be broadcast on or around July 4th, we thought we'd take this opportunity to take a deep dive into what is going on in the American auto industry. The last 250 years of the American car industry. And before we get started, I have to. Started with horsepower. It's all fine, right? It's all about horsepower. Exactly. How many times have you guys heard Consumer Reports

[00:00:42] hates American cars? 13,122. I stopped counting. Why do you think that is? Why do you think we even get accused of that? I think we finally should come and tell the truth about why we actually hate American cars. Yeah, I don't know. This is like this meme. Well, I mean, here's the truth, right? I mean, we rate vehicles. That's what we do. And we rate them for a whole bunch of different things.

[00:01:12] We do the testing we do on a track. We also look at reliability and we look at a lot of different things. The hate thing is misplaced because the truth is, is that we like a lot of American cars. And actually, if you look at our ratings and you look at how they perform on our track and our testing, they actually do quite well. Yeah. You look at, you know, Ford versus Toyota. They're kind of nominal. In some cases, Fords do better. The issue is that there's less American cars that we recommend and it's based on reliability.

[00:01:41] So it's not us. It's what consumers are telling us about their experience with the cars because we are kind of unique that we blend in reliability into our ratings, unlike other organizations, which is not our opinion about reliability. It's actually people in the field, over 350,000 cars in our latest survey. And they're telling us that truly American cars tend to be less reliable than some of the imports.

[00:02:08] And one of the words that jumped out to me when you gave this explanation is you said, you know, we, we like some of these cars. And, but, but that's, that, that to me is, is where I've gotten into discussions with other publishers because they would say, well, why don't you like so-and-so now this car, fill in the blank car. And it really has nothing to do with, with, with, with how we like it. You can enjoy it. I would use the word enjoy better than like, cause like it was almost a, it's like a hot button term.

[00:02:37] Like you either like it or you hate it. You're like, yeah, we enjoy driving some American vehicles. I don't enjoy driving some foreign quote unquote, depending on where they're made. We'll get to that. Vehicles, you know, and that's just the way it is. But as a company, Jake's point, no, it's, it's data. It's not personal feelings. Right. So it seems like the American public are not enjoying or not liking the reliability experience that they're having with certain American cars.

[00:03:04] It makes consumer reports sort of unique because a lot of, uh, writers and, or, or other organizations, you know, write a car review, but, but it's not then associated with an outside, uh, survey to measure owner satisfaction, reliability, stuff like that. It certainly would be a lot easier if we just basically were to rate the cars we like the most.

[00:03:26] Yeah. It would be hard for families because it would be stuff like BMW M three coupes and Corvettes and, uh, or stuff like that. Miata is always the answer. Miata is always the answer. Right. Family of seven Miata. Absolutely. Fans of talking cars, go look up that. Just tow your children in other Miata's behind you. More Miata's more better. Right. I like it.

[00:03:47] But, um, uh, so John, you, you kind of touched on this about, you know, whether you, you like, or just like, you know, foreign cars and then you made the correct point of, well, it depends where it's made. So it's like, what, you know, what is an American car? Is it just Detroit or is it a lot of other things? So look, I, I'll, I'll be very clear. I used a Gemini on this cause I didn't have time to go through and search up every data point, but the list of vehicles from foreign manufacturers,

[00:04:16] but they're built in the United States is extensive. I mean, you're talking a lot of them in Southern plants, but they're throughout the country. BMW is one of the first ones. I mean, you've got Genesis building in Montgomery. You've got Honda and Acura in Ohio, Indiana, Alabama, you know, Hyundai in Georgia, you know, the list goes on and on. I mean, all these Mazda's building the CX-50 in Alabama, you know, in a joint with Toyota.

[00:04:39] So the final dollar may go back to Munich or Stuttgart or to Tokyo or wherever the companies are headquartered, but they're paying American workers. They had American workers probably build the factories. They had American workers outfit them. They have American supply companies supplying the parts. There's a supply chain. You know, the whole supply. So what's, what's American? Is, is American this, let me just go to it. Chevrolet Equinox that's built in Mexico.

[00:05:04] Is it the Chevrolet Trax built in South Korea just because GM, you know, well, it's not the tubes anymore, you know, because they moved out of, out of there in Detroit, but because the final dollar goes back to, to there. Well, it's, it's again, final dollar. I mean, the truth is that there's communities that are built around these plants and supplier infrastructures that these areas have been, there's huge growth. You know, there's families, there's schools, there's all of that around these industries.

[00:05:30] Whereas, like you said, a lot of the U S companies are building factories in Mexico and, and not having a lot of employees and a lot of workers. So, so again, the final dollar, we're talking about stock price. Yeah, we are. So, so, so certainly you may be enriching stockholders more if you buy the Americans and it's going to help that, but, um, and the companies and the health of the companies, but, um, it's, it's complicated. You're totally right.

[00:05:55] And actually kind of a short way to, I mean, there's a reason why there's all these plants are here and a lot has to do with SUVs and restrictions. It's the chicken tax, right? I mean, basically like an SUV or something that's a truck. There's a very high tax, about 25% on anything that is a truck that's imported into the country. If it's built here, you could avoid that. So kind of the shorthand is if it's an SUV, that's a foreign manufactured SUV that you're driving. Chances are it's probably built in the United States.

[00:06:24] In fact, a lot of them are exported as the SUV market has grown overseas. They've taken the domestic built vehicles and they send them out. Sure. Right. And it's not, and when we're looking at Consumer Reports reliability surveys, a lot of the vehicles manufactured here do, do pretty well. Another, it used to be just the knock on the American worker, right? The American worker can't buy a good car. And clearly that's not the case. Yes, BMW X5 built down in Spartanburg, South Carolina. Recommended, you know.

[00:06:52] Well, but it was a lot of the most reliable Toyotas are built here. Honda Accords, CRVs, yep. In the United States. So yes, it is wrong interpretation to say that American workers can't build a car that's as reliable as stuff. That's just flat out wrong. Can I go back to where ultimately the dollar goes? Because oftentimes I would hear, well, you know, Toyota has a big plant in San Antonio, Texas building trucks. But the profits go back to Japan.

[00:07:19] But so my counter to that always was, well, you know, Ford General Motors, they have big business going on in Europe. Where does that profit go? I mean, in other words, a Ford of Europe, you know, makes money and they send the profits back to Detroit. Why isn't that, you know? You're totally right. And it's very complicated. And the truth is, is that, look, if you want to purchase a car with an American brand, there is nothing wrong with that. You shouldn't be apologetic about it. And you should go ahead and do that.

[00:07:50] If you want to buy an American brand that's headquartered in the United States, even if it might be built in China, but it's a Buick or a Lincoln or something like that, you can do that because there's a certain statement about it, right? There's nothing wrong with that. And, look, I mean, as Consumer Reports, I mean, our goal is to give you all the information, right? Correct. And that's why. I mean, even on our brand pages that you go and we will tell you where this company is headquartered. Right, where it's built. Because that could be important to you, and that's absolutely fine. Right.

[00:08:19] But you can't, the advice here is you can't just take it at a cursory level. You have to dig a little bit deeper. I don't mean to go back and forth, but with all of the plants that the big three own that are not in the United States, that's part of it. It's kind of the last bastion of worry or concern about where something's built.

[00:08:45] Because let's be very honest, 90X whatever percent, 80X percent of what we own, use, wear, consume, so much is built overseas. Yeah, you're actually overseas. You know, sewn overseas, whatever. And everyone's fine with that. I mean, the minute, you know, there's talk of a tariff or something like that, and I'm not getting play on it, I'm just saying the minute there's talk of a tariff on something coming from overseas, everyone's up in arms. Oh, my God, my bicycle component's going to be so expensive.

[00:09:13] My toys for my kids at the holiday time is going to be expensive. Cars, like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. There's a reason for it. It's got to be America. And there's a reason for it because, I mean, look, you know, textile jobs, they're not super high-paying. You know, you look at, you know, making plastics or toys or a lot of consumer goods, not high-paying. The automotive jobs, they're good jobs. They are high-paying. You could raise a family on it.

[00:09:41] That it would be terrible for us as a country to lose that manufacturing here. And, you know, again, like these transplants, which is, you know, where, like, you know, Toyota's building a plant or whatever, there is a concern about, you know, what about, you know, Ford and General Motors? Are they going to be healthy? I mean, I will say this, that what is, I mean, look, ultimately, we're about what's good for consumers. I would say what's good for consumers is choice. Yes.

[00:10:05] So, I mean, look, even if there are, I mean, not everyone should buy the absolute top pick. You know, we have top picks in 10 different categories. It's not for everybody. You know, you might want a different car because they get a different style or whatever it is. This is, I mean, car is more than just, you know, a washing machine. It's style, too. So, it's like having those options there is good for a consumer. So, I've got, this is story time with John. And I'll tell you, so just bought a... Read us a story. I'm going to take a drink. Yeah.

[00:10:34] Settle back in, okay? Light the fire. We're both going to have a sip. Okay. Some popcorn? Show your time? Just bought a used car for my daughter because she's got her license. All right. Okay. Yeah. So, similar to Consumer Reports, we went and drove a 2022 Volkswagen Taos. And she pulled out of the dealership into the street and felt the jerky transmission and was very uncomfortable driving it. And she called that out. I didn't. Wow. She's like, it's hard to drive. This is kind of weird. I don't know if I like it.

[00:11:03] If only she knew someone that worked at Consumer Reports. What I'm saying is, but then drove the 25, which has a different transmission and then slightly more horsepower. And she liked that a lot better. Now, yes, we're not, I don't think we recommend the Taos and such, but it's just to say, foreign car, foreign car. But it's from our process of testing. And we're not telling you like, oh, well, you can't buy it because it's from Volkswagen in Germany. No, you shouldn't buy that 22 because the transmission doesn't make it easy to drive. And it's that type of information.

[00:11:32] So, again, it comes back to information, giving as much information to the consumer as possible, not having a jingoistic or not having any kind of bias on it because of where it's from and the company overall that's making it. So, let me be very controversial here for a second here. So, and just for a try. So, again, you're exactly right. That's what we're doing. These are your options. Pick the best option for you.

[00:11:59] And I do believe that, you know, that there are Japanese cars that are very reliable. I think they're, right, the rising tides rise. I mean, I believe that American cars have gotten a lot better because of the competition. The reliability has gotten a lot better. You look at the safety following along. Oh, my goodness. I mean, when we started, I mean, like the interiors of American cars were all like hard plastics and they've gotten so much better. The infotainment systems have gotten so much better.

[00:12:26] The ride, all those things have really improved because of that competition. What I think is interesting right now, because, I mean, we're not blind to what's going on in the rest of the world, is what's going on in China right now. And China is this exploding car market. And, I mean, hopefully not physically the cars are exploding. I mean, well. Let's reword that. Let's reword that. They're on fire. It's on fire. Let's reword that.

[00:12:53] So, I was on vacation. We go to weird places whenever we go on vacation. And, like, over Christmas, went to China. And, actually, it was in a bunch of different cities there and drove in a lot of electric cars. And there are so many brands. And they are really competitive vehicles, at least from the electric side of it. And they are quiet and comfortable, impeccably finished, affordable. They charge quickly.

[00:13:21] And if these cars are now available, if they become available, we'll say, do we still stay that same tune? Just buy what makes sense for you. Or should you consider, you know, wait a minute. You know, I mean, look what's going on in Europe. You know, these Chinese cars are coming in. And it's, I don't know if the domestic companies are going to be able to compete. Well, the domestic companies, but even the foreign companies. So, they will undercut.

[00:13:50] They will undercut Toyota, undercut Honda, undercut, you know, Hyundai and Kia. And it could be that the savior for it will be something similar to dealership laws in the sense of, okay. Well, there'll be another version of the chicken tax, maybe. Well, you know, you have to manufacture. Well, sure. You have to manufacture the United States. And it could be that at the volume, shipping is not affordable anymore. Yeah. And they can't keep those prices. So, then you have the foothold here.

[00:14:17] And part of the question is whether or not, like, I mean, people are, many people are speculating that they're really selling these at a loss. Yeah. And the products are not fairly priced. And if that's the case, again, you know, yes, you should make your own decisions. But you should also consider that, like, you know, where do you want to put your dollars? And what do you believe in? And I think more and more, I think today people are, I mean, even, you know, young, I mean, look, I mean, used to be like, oh, I'm not gonna buy Japanese cars because they fought in the war or whatever.

[00:14:46] I mean, we're past that. But people are purchasing and making a statement with their dollars, whether or not they want to support certain companies that are doing good things for society or bad things in their perception. And I think that's legitimate. So we'll probably be able to see what happens on a micro level because Canada is allowing imports of Chinese cars.

[00:15:08] And Canada has a very robust auto industry, very much funded by Detroit, if I may be so honest, having assembly plants. I mean, the legendary Ford Windsor 351 V8 was built in Windsor, Ontario. Okay. So there you go. Nothing more American than that.

[00:15:27] So, and I will also say that historically speaking, when the Japanese started proliferating in the United States, there was talk about them dumping vehicles, selling them, you know, for really cheap price just to get market share. Now, coincidentally, in the 70s was also a real low point for American reliability and fuel economy. The price of gas went up. And here come the Japanese. They're small, they're fuel efficient, and lo and behold, they're reliable.

[00:15:58] So in other words, there might be some panic right now, but historically there's always been panic. Yeah. Okay. The first transplant was in the 1970s where Volkswagen rolled out their first rabbit in New Stanton, Pennsylvania. Now, again, we all survived that. Volkswagen is building a plant here, and oh, that's going to be bad for America and whatnot. But as you said, the rising tide, it raises all boats.

[00:16:26] So if the Chinese are really good at something, the rest of the world has to up their game, right? Well, as long as everyone's playing by the same rules. I mean, actually, what happened, I mean, so I talk about dumping products in the Japanese. I mean, in the 80s, you know, look it up on your own time, but it's like in the 80s, there was actually changes in terms of currency policy. So the exchange rate of Japanese yen versus the U.S. in the mid-80s radically changed, making the imports of the Japanese products actually much more expensive.

[00:16:56] They retooled and figured out how to be efficient, and they're still very competitive. But again, it's as long as everything is on the same playing field, the rising tide will. I think that's kind of the question and maybe a difference that we're seeing today. And to be an educated consumer is the best thing you can do, because in the 70s and 80s, Detroit was complaining about the Japanese. Correct. But Ford was rebranding Mazdas as courier pickups. Chrysler was rebranding Mitsubishis for the Dodge Colt and Eagle Talon.

[00:17:26] GM was rebranding Isuzu's, Suzuki's, and Toyotas as the Chevrolet Love, GeoTracker, and the GeoPRISM. So sometimes people talk about one side of their mouth, and they talk different on the other side of their mouth. So if you're out there buying a car and you're worried, well, where is it built and who's it employing? You have to dig a little deeper and figure out exactly what's going on. It's also, I think, everything's happening faster. Plants are built faster. Assembly lines are faster than ever.

[00:17:56] Robots versus humans in so many places. Who can win between the robots and the humans? You said that so fast you almost sounded like a robot. There's like a Terminator series out there, I think. It's a documentary. It's like a four-part documentary about the history with robots and humans. Talking movies. It's good to check that one out. You had a point. I'm sorry. I did derail you. It happened so quickly.

[00:18:24] Getting ramped up back then was different to your point when the monetary policy changed. Yeah. Today, okay, fine. There's available plants to be refitted, to be retooled. A lot of domestic plants that were closed that have been refitted. But massive assembly plants and the robots make it quicker to get to market. And that's why you see so many of the automakers now building here.

[00:18:49] To the point also when we talked about the SUVs and the share and where there are a number of things. But yeah, it's happening so much faster than it would back then in the 70s or 80s to get a foothold here to start building and save money. The plant that Tesla has in California, that way they originally started building the Model S and stuff, used to be a joint venture. Toyota and GM. Toyota and GM plant. Right, right. It was Numi. That was the geos that I mentioned before. They made Corollas and Prism.

[00:19:19] And I'm glad you also brought up automation because a lot of people talk about losing their jobs for various reasons. You know, if people are going to lose their jobs, you're going to lose it to automation and robots more than other people, if you think about that. AI. Yeah. I believe AI could do our podcast right now. I mean, pretty much. Super producer Dave Abrams would vastly prefer that, I'm sure. Are we AI generated? It would. Are we AI generated?

[00:19:49] But at some point it would say like... Why do I have six fingers? The Toyota Tundra is built in Indiana. You know, and it would just say that as a statement of fact. And then later on it would have to say that it, you know, totally hallucinated. So we're not... Yeah. Texas. We make our errors because, you know, we're trying hard. Why are we held to a higher standard in AI bots that people use? That's obviously fair. Mr. Fisher, because we're consumer reports. Oh, that's... Okay. Need I remind you? Shoot. That makes things hard. Goodness gracious. Okay.

[00:20:16] So we've kind of distilled, you know, where cars are coming from. Good choices for American buyers and that's all good. But staying with the theme kind of of the big three, why does it seem like Detroit cannot unlock the keys to consistent reliability? I like the unlock the keys. That was good. So there's a couple of reasons. So there's a couple of reasons. One reason is sometimes we're first.

[00:20:45] So, and what I mean by that is very often imported cars sell in their home market first. And what we see with every car is there's growing pains when they have the new generation that comes out. Very often they'll first sell in their home market and then they'll come here after they work out those initial buds. That helps. But the bigger thing is kind of not staying the course and just changing all the time. So kind of my go-to example is you look at Toyota and in the late 90s said, we're going to do hybrids.

[00:21:15] And guess what they've done every year since then to today? More hybrids. We're going to perfect this. And late 90s, what did GM do? They had an EV. And then they said, we're not doing EVs. We're going to do what they started doing hybrids. And they stopped doing hybrids. And then they had a plug in hybrid, which was the Volt. Stopped doing that. And they dabbled with diesels. And then we're going to do diesels. And flex fuel. And flex fuel.

[00:21:40] And they just keep on changing course to the whim of whether it's politics or whatnot. But it's like if you just follow the consumer and the consumer is like, yeah, hybrids kind of work good. Like they would have gotten there faster. And they just keep on cycling through different technologies. It goes way back. I mean, remember the Fiero? I'm going to go date myself. It started out kind of crummy. It got really good at the end. They got rid of it. What, 1990?

[00:22:08] They were like, ah, who's going to want a two-seat sports car in this country? Where's the Miata came out? Right. You know, so it's like they give up on – they're almost too early. And they give up on to it right when it starts kind of being something. GM, as soon as they perfect it, they kill it. But the other thing, and I would say – and again, not just to pick on GM, but what you see with a lot of the domestics is they change too much at the same time. Right?

[00:22:34] I mean, you look at the Forrester's. It's like, oh, new generation Forrester came out. Is it different? Yeah. You know, it's the same powertrain, same – all these different things. And they make these kind of – it's an evolution. It's not a revolution. How many different V6 or four-cylinder engines do General Motors have in the 80s and 90s across their lives? You know, because the Pontiac can't have the same one as the Chevy because, you know, blah, blah, blah. So it has to be this version.

[00:23:02] Or you get to vehicles like the Solstice and the Sky, the Pontiac Solstice and the Sky. Like, they have to use – you know, to save money, they have to use a certain platform, but then they have to jury-rig it to make it work. So then you have this bizarro top and it doesn't fit or it's not – and it's compromise after compromise just to get into the market fast versus, you're saying, the staying-the-course type of situation. But, I mean, look, they were going to kill a Corvette. I mean, you know – They were going to kill the Mustang. I mean, it's just – They were going to kill the Mustang as well. Yeah.

[00:23:31] They're going to make it into something else. They almost did with Mustang 2. Yeah. But it is very – whether it's politics or whether it's financial markets – driven not necessarily by the buying market. And, Jake, you also brought up a good point talking about American reliability. Like Ford, for example, had a bunch of reliable models like the Fusion was a really good sedan. It was reliable. Yeah. Absolutely.

[00:23:56] They took that out of their lineup, which immediately affected their brand's overall reliability from Consumer Reports surveys. In general, in the past, what we've seen is the cars from the domestic brands were quite reliable. It was actually the SUVs. And because they've gone and kind of like axed so many of the sedans in their lineups, on average, they're getting worse.

[00:24:20] Well, it was like murder in the family because they promoted SUVs because, again, SUVs are more profitable, particularly big truck ones. But they also don't have to hit the same fuel economy standards as cars. So they're easier to build in that respect. Cars are harder to make fuel efficient because of the rules. So they're killing their own product to make something better, to feed these.

[00:24:45] And it's a shame because you still have – and, again, the sedan market is closed down for every manufacturer. But you still have a number of good sedans. They're all just, quote, unquote, foreign automakers, even if they're built in the United States. I'm hoping for a sedan revival. And I will bring up a great memory of the last version of the Chevrolet Impala sedan, which was a really good car. Yeah. And I miss it. And it seems like GM can actually build great stuff when they feel like it.

[00:25:15] Well, Ford had a hit with the Taurus for so long. Yeah. And then they kind of went weird with it and, you know, the 500. And then they brought back the Taurus. But, again, a compromised vehicle, which was as long as his room, but it had no seating capacity. Right, right. But, I mean, like Fusion, Focus. Those were fantastic cars. They were good cars. They really were. Yeah, just to remind the Talking Cars audience, we don't hate un-American branded cars. We really don't. We like a lot of them, actually.

[00:25:42] The Lincoln MKX, the final generation, was incredible because it was a great hybrid that sold for the same price as the non-hybrid version. Very reliable. I mean, no, sorry. MKZ. Right, right. That SUV is in the brain. What? It was that line. What did Lincoln go wrong? You mean Zephyr? Zephyr? Oh, gosh. But that's another thing that the Japanese do that are really consistent. I mean, the Civic, the Accord, these are nameplates that have been around forever.

[00:26:11] 11th generation Civic we're on now. Okay. The Camry, been going on forever. Yeah. So it's like you've got momentum going with this. You've got goodwill. You've built upon it. You've got repeat buyers. And let's talk about the Civic for a second. I mean, what does the Civic have in common? The 11th generation Civic has basically the exact same powertrain as the 10th generation Civic, right? I mean, okay, they've added the hybrid. But again, they added hybrid kind of mid-stroke, right? They didn't do it right when they introduced the thing.

[00:26:39] So it's like let's gently kind of add technologies and start building. This is not what the domestics do. You look at, I mean, I think back about like the current Explorer. You know, changed everything. Right. Huge. Everything on this car, the one shot. I don't think any automaker could make that reliable when you change everything at the same time. Look, Toyota for years, the 3.5 V6, you know, Nissan with their, with their 3.5 and 3.7 V6. You know, just model after model after model using the same thing.

[00:27:08] Six-speed automatic transmissions. I mean, Mazda still uses a six-speed automatic transmission, you know. Right. Yeah. Pro and con of that. But they're only introducing like touchscreens today. Right. Yeah. But the changes are incremental or the refinement and stuff like that. And instead of, yes, to your point, like now it's a brand new twin turbocharged V6 engine and an all-wheel drive system. But it's a Haldex base one. So it's this, this, you know, wholesale changeover. They can't get out of their own. You know, and in a new plant and with a new assembly line. Like it's, it's, it's recipe for disaster.

[00:27:38] I mean, when you're talking about the stroke, you probably need to talk about the bore too. You know, the bore and the stroke. I see what you did there. And Dave Abrams is completely bored right now. Anyhow, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's touch on this. So you, you brought up the, the GM first efforts in EVs, the EV1, I believe. I've driven the EV1. The name of the vehicle. Yeah. And it's like, they, they, they didn't stick with it. But you think how far ahead would GM be in EVs if they stayed with their EV program and they committed money to it. Yeah.

[00:28:07] And that brings me to the next point is like, you know, is the EV market in the United States cooling? And you know, what is, are the big three going to, going to stick with this? I mean, I think a lot of manufacturers years ago were like, we're going to be all EV by whatever, 2030 or something like that. Because of politics. And they're rethinking some of that. So what do you think Detroit is going to be doing regarding their investments in EVs? Well, I think they're going to have to do both. So they're going to have to have electric cars. They're going to have hybrids.

[00:28:37] I think everyone, if they want to be successful, has to take hybrids very, very seriously. I think if you go out five years, I would be surprised to see any introductions that are not hybrid powertrains. And you're talking real hybrids, not mild hybrid type things that, you know, starter and rob. Just a big alternator. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's just a no compromise type of powertrain. You don't have to change your life around it. You get fantastic fuel economy.

[00:29:04] You see a lot of companies even right now just scrambling, just asking Toyota, please, can we use your technology until we work out our own? But, you know, you look at Honda. Honda is really getting its legs right now in hybrids. They're doing it their own way. They're making it a little sportier. They're making it more fun. To your point, look at all the Toyotas that are now hybrid only. Absolutely. Camry, hybrid only. Yeah, RAV4. RAV4, hybrid only. I mean, mainstream vehicles. Right. Really, I mean, it's amazing.

[00:29:32] So you're talking about electrification. You got it. You got it. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But not really strict EVs because Detroit has had some issues bringing out their new EVs. We brought up Honda and all of their, you know, what they did. They actually, you know, rebranded a GM product for their prologue, which from a reliability standpoint has turned out to be not so good. But the Mustang Mach-E, on the other hand. Yeah. You know, after some teething gains. Successful.

[00:30:02] I think the trick is they can't just, again, you can't just keep on steering this ship. You can't just completely reverse directions. You have to have, you have to continue the development on the EVs. You have to keep on pushing for hybrids. You have to do both. And you can't just, again, great example. If they would have stuck with that EV1, if they would have just had a presence and continued development. They discovered so many different things. They created so much new technology for that EV1 that was almost kind of like lost in the dumpster for years.

[00:30:31] And then they kind of start over. Well, how many manufacturers are now bringing out the new generation of the Volt? Yeah. That's right. That's right. Absolutely. A good idea, wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and I think that we probably looked at it and said, okay, well, you're carrying around all this extra weight and it's not really getting, you know, the mileage. But you could be critical of a first generation doesn't mean to kill it. Sure. You know, because there's room for improvement. I would not want to be driving around a first generation Prius these days.

[00:31:01] No. That was not a very nice vehicle to drive in. It was a dumpy little box on wheels. Truthfully. That doesn't mean we give up on it. That doesn't mean it didn't get good mileage and it didn't do what it's kind of almost like owner satisfaction where it's like, does it deliver on its promise? Yeah. Okay. It doesn't promise to race a Mustang. It doesn't promise to be as luxurious as a BMW. It promises to get you to A to B at 45 miles per gallon or whatever at that time, which was incredible. Right. Absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:31:29] But I think, I think what we didn't realize at the time that the mainstreamization of these hybrids were just, again, I think it's a fairly recent thing where it's like now we're saying we get in the hybrid. It's like, oh, it drives nicer than the gas counterpart. That was not in the cards back in the 90s. Look, the first Honda Accord hybrid, what was it sold as? Performance. It was a V6. Yeah. It was fast. It was really, really fast. But that's the thing.

[00:31:58] But, you know, it was how to sell. The whole thing is how to sell it with the American market, you know, the American market with horsepower. No, you know, we looked at that. That was a misstep. Hopefully it didn't send Honda back, you know, or maybe it did kind of send them backwards. But it's how development works, right? I mean, you try different things. Right. You figure out what works. I mean, it's like smartphones. You go back, you know, early days of smartphones. Some had keyboards here. Some slid out. Some did all these things. And then there was like a form factor where it's like, okay, it's a big screen. All right. With a virtual keyboard. We're getting there.

[00:32:27] It's like, okay, gas engines. They're two liter turbos. Right. And then you get hybrids. Yep. And they give you really good fuel efficiency and they're a little smoother. So it's like we're kind of getting to the spot part where like people are, there's a convergence, I think, of like, oh, this actually works and people like it. Two words for you. Flip phone. What is that coming back? Oh, it is. You can go. It's, it's, it's, uh, you can do a quince, you know, you probably can pull one out of your drawer. Trust me. I had one.

[00:32:56] The little retractable antenna. Yeah. All that stuff. The big battery. Oh my God. My sister made fun of me when she saw the, you know, pulling out their antenna. Oh my gosh. Okay. So, um, so another part of the U S auto market is, um, retail and why is buying a car in the United States so terrible? And it continues to be terrible. And a reminder in talking cars, we buy all of our test cars. So we know, kind of know what we're talking about.

[00:33:26] How many cars have you bought? Quince? I bought 171 cars since 2001. And I trust me, I've seen it and I've heard it all. Um, and it's, it's depressing to me because I, I get really excited to buy a car for the test program, especially cause I'm spending someone else's money. But, um, um, I think buying a car should be awesome because you've got, it's a brand new car, the new car smell.

[00:33:53] It's, it's, you don't have to worry about somebody else broke it or something like that. And it should be an exciting time, but most people I think see it as just dreadful. It is really interesting. I mean, cause I mean, we're a consumer society. I mean, like, you know, people go and, you know, you're excited when you see the Amazon box on the doorstep, you know, and buying new stuff should be fun. And, and yeah, it's not, I mean, a recent, a recent poll came out and said 83% surveyed said they really disliked the buying process.

[00:34:22] You know, what's interesting too though is, I mean, this is not a uniquely American car problem. This is a problem with, with imports. This is a problem with all this. And sometimes like the imports are even worse because you know, they built their dealerships later and there's other reasons for it. So some of, you know, a lot of it comes down to what we're getting into is manufacturing costs and, you know, wages and price point and all that. And, you know, so where, what's, what's the hardest, what's the hardest thing to deal with at the, at the car dealership?

[00:34:53] F and I, the finance and insurance guy who's upselling that and the service department, which is, you know, the hourly rates. I'm not knocking what it is, but those are the parts that are like almost now the things that you feel unprepared for and you don't know if it's, if you're getting ripped off there because rates of 150, 200 an hour suggested, uh, suggested, um, maintenance and packages and all this stuff. And it's when you're not, you don't have the understanding and I'm not saying that I'm great cause I live in this world and have more expertise in it.

[00:35:23] We're saying you're great. Yeah. But it's like the guy who shows up to, you know, they walk up to your house and they say like, Hey, we're in the neighborhood and your roof. And all of a sudden you're like, ah, I don't know about my room. Oh, my roof's up there. I'm not the expert. Or maybe he should do it. You know, and you get into a situation where you're not prepared. And a lot of it is being prepared and taking your time, not buying the car because yours is dying in the driveway that day, but being able to research and be like, okay, this is what one place says about extended warranties.

[00:35:48] This is what they say about the glass coat protective package that I'm going to get upsold. And then this is what it says about when it's time to maintain it, what you should do there. That way you're prepared and you're not stuck making this decision where the $30,000 car becomes a $38,000 car because of all the add-ons that you're financing. It suddenly becomes unaffordable. Right. Right. But that's the, it's the pressure and it's this and it's, I have to make a decision now. I mean, I think one thing is like, look, most things that you buy, if I buy something on

[00:36:16] Amazon, if I buy something at Best Buy, I'm not necessarily negotiating. Right. There's a price. And sometimes they have sales and sometimes I could watch the price and, but it's like to have something that big. I mean, houses are obviously that way where you negotiate. But I mean, is this what people want? I don't think so. And I don't know. Maybe, can we put a poll out? Let's, we're putting out a poll. Avery's shaking his head. What would you prefer?

[00:36:45] Would you prefer a fixed price? This is what I paid. This is what everyone pays for this car. Tesla did that. Saturn did that back in the day. Or do you really want to have the situation where I could get a better deal than the other guys? There are some dealers. I mean, in our areas, you know, we're, we're here in Connecticut. There are dealers that I've experienced looking, shopping for both, you know, new and used cars. They say, this is our price. And if you look at it, okay, it's between the base MSRP and what some others are selling it for.

[00:37:13] And it's like, this is just our price. We don't come in. We're not giving you blah, blah, blah. We're transparent. It does make it an easier situation. But, but again, we talk, we keep talking about how General Motors was kind of ahead of their time for a lot of their technology. You could argue that they were ahead of their time with Saturn. Absolutely. Because they like Saturn dealers were supposed to just charge the same price. They did. And they were, they had very happy customers. Right. Yep. Like it worked.

[00:37:41] It was this experiment that people were like, and, and actually a consumer person, I think if you look at back in the back issues, they used to do kind of like surveys of dealership experiences. And like Saturns were like number one. Yeah. So why isn't it replicated today? Why isn't it? Well, I mean, it's replicated by some of the online car companies like, like Tesla, Rivian and Lucid. Um, I think it's because the dealerships, they, they don't want to do that. And some dealerships do some dealerships.

[00:38:11] You can find dealerships that are like, this is our price. Yeah. But, but yeah, I think they, it's more profitable. The dealerships do have a lot of power. It's not, they're not wholly owned by the, by the car company. So. And their state franchise laws and, and that protects the retails, the retailers. And they do find that they can make more money that way. You know, I, I, we went, we still had to buy and test cars during COVID. And I have to say for all the years that I bought cars for the test program, that was

[00:38:38] really tough because the supply was pretty low. Sure. The prices were insane. And I hate that we had to pay like retail, sometimes above retail to get a test car. And I remember talking to a number of salespeople during that time. And I said, you know, you guys, the dealers have a terrible reputation. Even before COVID you're making it worse. And like, we don't care. We're going to make extra money now and screw you.

[00:39:08] Well, it is very, look, there is a blinder aspect, but you know, the Hyundai Ioniq nine, I bought that for a test program. You know, they were, they were firm at that price. You know, there were, there were ones that were over at other dealerships, eight, $9,000, $800, $900, $1,000. And yeah, four months later they were soft. So if you're not first on the lot, first on the block to have it, yeah, prices will go down and you've, you gain, you gain a little more leverage, but it's again, making the

[00:39:37] decision of when it went. I think, I think no one has a problem with prices changing based on market conditions. So like, I mean, about COVID, they weren't selling a lot of cars and they got to eat. You know, it's like, it's not like we're trying to like, we want the salesperson not to have dinner that night. You're right. I mean, everyone should get an honest wage. The thing is, is that you never know if you're really getting hosed or not. Like you want to get the same deal that other people are getting. And you know that with most things. I buy airline tickets, right? I click on the thing.

[00:40:05] Yeah, they're going up and down, but I don't have to go and like call up Delta and say, Hey, you know, can you take 20 off? Yeah. It doesn't work. If you don't take me to Orlando for this price, I'm going to go to America. How about I have no peanuts and you give me 20 bucks back? I'll buy you peanuts. That's our negotiation. Yeah, no, you're right. The automotive retail is a lot of negotiations. Some people really, really like it. I think my dad saw it as a contact sport, but I mean, most, most people I don't think like it at all.

[00:40:35] It's also more transparent these days than, than, you know, when our parents, even when we were maybe buying our first cars, you know, there's, there's a lot more information out there and it's a lot harder for, I think for the salesperson at that point, you know, they're the, the, the, the, the commission, you know, the profit on it is, is slimmer. So it is eking out as much as possible. And also, but to move the car so that they can get the incentive from the manufacturer or from the dealer, um, so that they can, they can make money. Yeah.

[00:41:02] And consumer reports has a number of articles on consumer reports, uh, dot org on tips on how to buy a new car, especially for, for new car buyers. We also are always running deals, uh, running stories on the best deals out there for recommended consumer, consumer reports cars. So definitely check out our, our website to get more advice and some ideas of where do you start with, with, with choosing the right model. I mean, I think that if I could interject, I think it was what John Krafchick back when

[00:41:31] he was with Hyundai or something, you said people would rather go to the dentist than buy a new car. Oh yeah. No, you, you, you, you, you Google that and you will find lots of stories and even surveys that, that, that I mentioned before about why it's, it's so often. And I, you know, just as a, as a car person, I wish it wasn't, I wish it was as joyful. I wish everyone could, could get a sense of joy and wonder that I feel when I'm buying cars for the test program in, in their own lives, but it, but it's often super, super stressful.

[00:42:00] Um, kind of which, which brings us to, you know, one of the last points is, is, is what is the future of, of the, the, the American market? And we've kind of touched on this about planning. What are, are they going to go into more EVs or more hybrids or whatnot? But, um, so what's, what's down the road? I think EVs will have a reset. Again, we talk about like as technology evolves because they don't have to be $90,000 EVs. They can't be.

[00:42:27] I mean, for the market to have any future, they can't all be super expensive. Some of that was, you know, propped up by incentives as well. You know, I mean, personally, I will say why $90,000 EVs were getting $7,500 back off of it. I mean, that's my personal opinion. Um, but I, I don't think that they're here to go away. And just seeing what's going on with gas prices and the interest in used EVs shows that there's at the right price, they're viable, um, in the United States.

[00:42:57] But again, it might be like those, that first pre is like, look, it's, it's not going to be a race car. It's not going to be, it, this is what it is. It's efficient. It has a very fast charge, uh, the battery, you could charge it very quickly. It has this range. It's not trying to be a pickup truck that can go 600 miles that can tow a trailer, but then it can only go 200 miles. Like, no, it, this is what it is. It's kind of a stay in your lane. And I think back to what one of our, your, I think your predecessor said is like, it

[00:43:26] could be that in certain regions, certain fuel types are better than others. You know, the whole country, big diesel trucks are great for the distance, but in the tight East coast, it's going to be batteries. Yeah. I mean, I mean, my, my answer is hybrids, hybrids, hybrids always has been. And I think if you follow the consumer, that's what they're looking for. No compromise, efficiency, um, low cost to own reliable, right? I mean, this is what people looking for and they, they, they deliver on that.

[00:43:52] There is a place for EVs, but the market, I mean, I mean, you think about incentives, right? I mean, you mentioned incentives. Incentives makes, like you said, incentives don't make sense on a hundred thousand dollar vehicle, right? Incentives make a huge difference on a low priced vehicle. But the truth is, is where the market has gone for EVs. It's really been catered and it continues to be catered around early adopters that people

[00:44:16] are buying these, not necessarily because they are the most efficient or, or global warming is what their concern is. Because very often we see someone has a Tesla and they have a, they have a Jeep and they have a Tesla and they have a diesel pickup truck. Right. But it's more about like, I want the latest technology. And we see this stole with the market, right? The EVs are filled with, they got to have a new design for their door handle. They need the biggest screen ever.

[00:44:42] They need karaoke lyrics going on your screen and being able to have Netflix and, and, and fart sounds when you're, you know, your turn signal. But it's like, it's, it's, it's, it's focused on that early adopter technology. That how I can stand out from the next person. And look, there's, there's a market here for BMW M3s. There is a market here for sports cars. Yep. But that's where it is right now because the people who are buying these EVs, they're

[00:45:10] demanding to go zero to 60 in four and a half seconds. Right. And there are, it's a performance bargain when you think about it. So it's, it's there. I think what's interesting is for the practical minded people, you know, who are maybe buying a Sienna hybrid or something like that. I don't know if it's going to be a place for that. And I don't know. I mean, it would be interesting to see if the market goes there, but it depends on technology. It depends on the technology, it depends on the price. It depends on what the availability.

[00:45:39] What worries me about the automotive future? Well, there's two things that worry me. One is I want more stick shift cars, but that's, that's, that's nothing to do with this conversation. You're going to lose sleep over something that's, that, that, that tip has sailed, my friend. I am losing a lot of sleep. I know. I'm losing a lot of sleep. Every day it seems like it's almost all gone. I'm done with it. And it's like, you know, oh no, GTI, you too. Yeah. But anyway, I digress.

[00:46:05] So no, the other thing that concerns me about the market is we're seeing a larger separation between the demands of a new car buyer and a used car buyer. And this is a huge problem because the new car buyers tend to be richer and richer and they don't necessarily have a big family. And they're, they, they care about all these like gizmos and all this new technology. The used car buyer is much more practical. And the problem is that if there's a disparity between those, we wind up having the, I mean,

[00:46:33] look, the car market is designed around the new car buyer. Right? I mean, it's not getting into circulation without it. They're talking about 16, 16 and a half million units a year. So that's, that's a lot of, that's a lot of, you know, new cars. Right. And it's far more sales in terms of used cars. But the problem is, so it's like the minivans. We're seeing not a whole lot of minivans being sold to the new car buyer. Used car buyer loves minivans, right? I mean, they got up and the prices. So that's why you see this. You see the resale value of these minivans extremely high.

[00:47:01] You see the resale value of these expensive EVs very low. Well, they, they, they, they drop like a stone, but, but, but to just to, to, to hop on your point about early adopters, these, these are, that's a small percentage of the market. And usually they're people with money, but again, that's, that's a small percentage of the overall car buying public. And with the average price of a car hovering around $50,000, what, I mean, what, what kind of hope do you give for people who aren't in that 1%?

[00:47:30] Well, I mean, I, I, that number is bandied about and I'm not saying it's not, it's not true in that that is the average, but it's totally skewed. And there are still a lot of, and we have, to your point, lists on consumer reports.org about new cars that are available certain price. It, it comes back to my rant about not running out at the last moment and buying because the dealer has on the showroom floor, the premium platinum XSE, you know, with the package on it.

[00:47:58] And sorry, that Corolla is now a $42,000 Corolla and I'm not knocking Toyota dealers. And you're exaggerating a little bit. I'm exaggerating. But the fact is you can still buy cars in the $20,000 range. Right. You just have to possibly order it. Right. You just have to shop around. Be patient. They are available. Absolutely. But the pricing is, again, having just bought a pre-owned car for my daughter, like, yeah, prices are high. It certainly is. And to your point, I think it's a, it's a, a worry down the road for used cars because,

[00:48:27] you know, take some of the Audis we've looked at, for example, you know, pre-owned Audi, they plummet, blah, blah, blah. Some of them have three screens across the front. I do not want to have to repair one of those, if not all three screens in an 11 or 12 year old car. And that's, that's proliferating throughout where who is going to be fixing that? Or you're just going to drive around with a blank screen, with the screen, the center screen's blank or whatever. I think the EVs are very much going to be that early adopters. And that's what we're seeing right now.

[00:48:56] So, so you think about EVs, you think about luxury vehicles, you think about performance cars, you think about sports cars. I think that's where I think the EVs are kind of like pulling. You want the ultimate luxury, you want the ultimate performance. The EVs are kind of in that area. I think you're right. There are still vehicles in the market. And we, again, you look at our top picks, you know, you look at the Crosstrek and you look at the Camry, you look at the Civic, you look at Maverick, you know, I mean, these are all vehicles that are pretty affordable and pretty practical and they are available at a decent price.

[00:49:26] But, but, but to, to, to hop on your, your comment about the screens, um, the future, when you're talking about the future of cars, what about whether or not we can, we can, we're trying, we've always working on this, but how do we make the manufacturers make their controls simpler? So, so fewer screens, simpler controls. Is that going to be part of the future of the industry? Yes, it is. And there's a bright spot there. And I think the auto manufacturers are kind of seeing the light a bit. We're seeing some of the screen. There's so many screens.

[00:49:56] Of course, they're seeing the light. Until they don't work. It's burned in. Dazzled by there, Jake. I mean, come on. No, I mean, look, I mean, to be honest, I mean, look, if you have a big screen, but it's actually laid out well and you've got big buttons, you could have a bad big screen. You could have a good, good, big screen. The issue is that the controls are starting to improve. We're seeing some getting worse. We're seeing some improvement. We're seeing some car manufacturers moving away from capacitive switches, which don't have any kind of tactile feedback.

[00:50:24] We're seeing return of sometimes like, you know, hard buttons and knobs. So I think they are seeing that. This is really important to consumers. So that's a bright spot. And actually going back to why we were talking about American cars, I think this is actually one competitive advantage that the American cars companies have, that their controls tend to be simpler and better laid out and more maybe suited to an American consumer. Hold that thought.

[00:50:51] Hold that thought because, because we have to get to our questions. Okay. Which is really important. But so with that in mind, we're going to do a one audience questions. We love your questions. Text 30 second videos. Just go to talkingcarsaticloud.com. That's talkingcarsaticloud.com. And if we use your question in the podcast, we'll send you a free t-shirt, some automotive swag, something like that.

[00:51:16] So the question that we have is from David, not to David Abrams, who writes, are there any aspects of American vehicles that are superior to foreign vehicles? Oh my God. I did a whole thing. So, so yeah. You said Kreskin before you knew it was coming maybe? Yeah. I think this is somewhere where the American car companies are better. The controls. Well, I mean, just think about like, sometimes I feel like I get into a new Mercedes that

[00:51:45] we're testing and I'm like, who did you design this for? Because, you know, I don't know if it's designed for the Chinese market where, you know, they're looking for all this technology and bright lights and all these things, but it's not designed for me. And I think somewhere where, and it's not just the controls, but it's just kind of the general usability of cars. I think American car companies understand American consumers, which means I need a big bin here in the center console. I need places to put my stuff.

[00:52:12] I need to put my cup in a place where it's not blocking everything. And I want a knob here. And so I think they generally do better in terms of just that general usability than we see with some of the imports. Mine was a little more superficial in the sense that I think the domestics, they do keep their heritage and continue their heritage really well. And maybe that's just because they're holding on to consumers.

[00:52:40] You know, you don't see, aside from Mazda, you don't see much heritage in any of the Hondas or the Toyotas. There's just less heritage in the United States market for a Kia or a Hyundai like that. But domestics really try to tie into that and continue it on. It's an interesting aspect from selling. It's not a Consumer Reports rated thing. I totally get that. But it's a very interesting thing to look at from a selling and a marketing standpoint. Right. And even, you know, digging down one level from that is, I'd say, V8s.

[00:53:10] So in terms of heritage, V8s in pickup trucks, V8s in Corvettes and Mustangs. I just read a story in Automotive News about Chrysler is saying, well, we don't really care the price of gas is going up because we're going to be introducing V8-powered Ram trucks. Now, you know, Stellantis got a lot of flack because they replaced their Hemi V8 with the straight six, which in our testing actually is a pretty nice engine, but it's not a Hemi.

[00:53:40] And they actually saw sales dip when they took out the V8 engine. So, you know, what is uniquely American, but something that Americans do pretty well, I think they produce some pretty good V8s. I don't know if the competitive advantage when gas is $5 a gallon, but it is something they do well. That decisions are made on levels way built to be. You know, at the same time, I mean, going to that point, you know, look, they do trucks very well, of course. I mean, that's very... They do, absolutely.

[00:54:10] Look, that's almost like a duh, you know, statement. But I mean, Toyota still to this day has... Tacoma is a rock solid vehicle, but they have had a lot of issues with the Tundra trying to be competitive, trying to incorporate some Toyota... Engine issues. Engine issues and just the size and, you know, what it does, you know, and even some respects the big SUVs based on trucks again. I mean, I'm not going to say that the Tahoe and Escalade, et cetera, are fantastic in all

[00:54:39] aspects, but the Sequoia is just, you know, just almost like a DOA type of thing because of just how it's... How it is set up with the hybrid battery and all that. There's just sometimes things that are being shoehorned in maybe by the foreign manufacturers that the Americans are just like, no, we could do this and this is where the market is. Interesting, because it's almost like Toyota and GM just switched roles because GM sticks with their basic V8s for their big trucks and Toyota comes in with making a super complicated Sequoia.

[00:55:09] Yeah. So, you know, because the last Sequoia was a V8, right? And was pretty solid and pretty reliable, but now they're making it, you know, Toyota has gone with smaller engines with the idea, perhaps with fuel economy in mind, but they're having some reliability issues because it's new tech. That's right. Again, now almost like I'm talking all the time. We are touching on this in other places, but a lot of domestic vehicles also run on regular gas. Well, not...

[00:55:39] Good point. Universally, you know, there are ones that take premium fuel, but a lot of them run on regular gas and not so much from overseas manufacturers. You know, you see a lot of this premium required or premium recommended, but in the book it says this, you know, and we're going into that more. But there are a lot... At $5 gas, to your point, it's a huge thing. There are a number of vehicles that you just run on regular and they're fine. So kudos to the domestics.

[00:56:07] And speaking of Americana, did you know that 2026 is the 100th anniversary of Route 66? The legend... Really? The legendary road that goes from Chicago to Santa Monica, California is 100 years old. You know, we all had kids. What was it like to ride it when we were old? I'm old, but I'm not that old. But, you know, we watched the Cars movie, right, with our kids. Of course we did.

[00:56:32] A lot of that is based on the rise and fall of Route 66. They built the interstates and the road didn't go through the small towns anymore. Let me throw something else out that I think you're going to be very happy if you're going to have a domestic branded car. If you break down on Route 66 in the middle of nowhere, you're going to be much better able to find a part for your car. And no matter where you are, the parts are going to be much cheaper. So if you want to go...

[00:56:59] I mean, even just, you know, not even breaking down, but just like, you know, you want to get a brake job on your Ford, it's going to be way cheaper than for an Audi or a Volvo or a lot of the foreign vehicles. So, you know, we can look at this podcast and genuinely say we got our kicks on Route 66. You're just building up to that. That's right. That's the whole reason why you did this. You got that right, mister. So if you're watching on YouTube, we recently added a donate button to our page.

[00:57:29] Consumer Reports is a nonprofit. So if you're able to help us keep doing this important work like talking cars, we always appreciate it. Every little bit helps. And that'll about do it for this episode, which was masterfully orchestrated by super producer Dave Abrams and expertly edited by Andrew. I still play hockey, Belize. And of course, Anatoly, the great Chumsky. As always, check the show notes for more information on the vehicles and topics that we discussed. And just a reminder, keep your questions coming.

[00:57:56] Go to talkingcarsaticloud.com. Thanks so much for tuning in. We'll see you next week.