Get a Job As a CR Tester, Rivian vs. Lucid, Unfair Minivan Bias

[00:00:10] Welcome back to Talking Cars. I'm Michael Crossan. I'm Joe Veselak. And I'm Steve Ellick. So we have a special episode this week. We are taking questions from the audience. We get so many questions emailed to us at talkingcars at iCloud.com. People send in written questions, video questions. And if we pick your question, read it on the podcast, which we always do one or two on every podcast, you get a shirt, kind of like the shirt I'm wearing or the shirt Joe's wearing. But we decided that we get so many questions that we would do a full questions episode. So here we go. Our first one is a video question from John in Texas.

[00:00:39] Hey guys, it's John in North Texas. I want you to help me find a unicorn. I'm a mobile DJ. I've got two subwoofers. Each are just under 25 inches tall and just under 21 inches wide. Ideally, I'd love to find a vehicle in which I can place those side by side at the rear of the vehicles. We've got a 2012 Equinox. It's not wide enough.

[00:01:07] We have a 2023 Sportage. And for some strange reason, the rear seats don't fold down to become flush with the cargo floor. I'd be willing to look at a small cargo van. Not really interested in a minivan because, you know, they're just not very cool. So any help you could pass my way would be great.

[00:01:28] Cool. So thank you, John. Basically, John has certain space requirements, probably knows he needs a van, but would prefer an SUV. So Steve being our data guy, what should he get? So I wrote a query against the database where we measure MIRP, which is basically the space, the cargo space in a vehicle. That's like how one big box will fit, right? The largest single item will fit.

[00:01:54] Exactly. So this is actually the perfect requirement. And John specified that the width he's looking for is over 42 inches because 21 inch and 21 inch for the two subwoofers. And then the height he's looking for greater than 25 inches. That's the height of the subwoofers.

[00:02:10] So that's actually perfect to query the database with because I pulled up a list of cars. Unfortunately, it is mostly minivans and large SUVs such as the Expedition, the Kia Carnival. One interesting one that does fit this space requirement here is the Grand Highlander. So that's not a bad choice because, you know, pretty everyday good to drive vehicle that you can fit a bunch of stuff in the back.

[00:02:39] Yeah, that was the first thing I went to seeing that the Grand Highlander actually made it on this list. It was like immediate go to that where it's like you're going to get the best blend of just the driving experience as well as all the cargo capability. And it's just a nice, reliable car to drive. Yeah, I mean, I totally thought the same thing. Grand Highlander, if you don't want a minivan. Yeah. But he did say he's open to a cargo van. We don't test those, but that'd be a good option as well.

[00:03:07] So I actually, maybe in another life, have family that was in the wedding in the mobile DJ business. So I have some experience with this exactly. And John wants a minivan. He just doesn't know it yet. Yeah. So my take on it is subwoofers are heavy, amplifiers are heavy, all that kind of stuff. All those SUVs have higher like cargo floors, right? The floor is higher. So you're having to lift up, you're having to reach way inside. The minivan, you can actually kind of step up in there yourself, move the stuff around. That's a good point.

[00:03:35] You know, again, they're still nice to drive like a Sienna or an Odyssey are all great to drive. And you can get them pretty well optioned, like with heated and cooled seats and all that kind of stuff. So you're nice and relaxed when you get to the wedding or whatever it is that you're doing. And then easy to unload, easy to load after. Cargo vans are okay too, but they're just not as pleasant to drive. Oh yeah, you're going to lose the driving experience. And like terrible gas mileage. So actually I owned a cargo van, a 2500 GMC with a six liter. It was kind of awesome. But I mean, it gets like nine miles to the gallon in the real world.

[00:04:04] And then load it up, it gets a little bit worse. And it's just not pleasant to drive. Like it's fine going to the gig, but then if you're just driving it on a Tuesday, it kind of stinks. Yeah, you can take the Grand Highlander home and do your normal life stuff. It really just is. Or the minivan for that matter too. When you're in a cargo van, I get it, but that's really just purpose driven for a lot of that stuff. Minivans are so versatile. They're kind of cool. I think they're underrated. Yeah, so yeah, I was thinking of like just thinking minivans. You go back to like what was the cooler minivans of our generation.

[00:04:35] And I remember there was a 1999 Dodge Caravan RT concept that came out. It has some, you have to Google it, has some decal, you know, graphics on the side. It looks extreme. I remember it's like something you'd want your parents to buy. Yeah, it had nice wheels on it and it looked sharp. Later down the road, you know, I definitely am glad, you know, I would never buy something like that. But just like it's a pretty novel idea, you know. Yeah, I think it's useful. But certainly, you know, there are some choices here for John, right?

[00:05:02] So basically looking at big three-row SUVs with enough room in the back to put these subwoofers and then maybe people too, you know, as you need. So cool. Thank you for running that query for us, Steve, because I have absolutely no idea how to do that in the database. So speaking of minivans, our next question is from Anthony in Maryland. And Anthony says, My fiancé and I were driving around town the other day and passed what appeared to be the newest Kia Carnival. I had to convince my fiancé that the arguably decent-looking car was, in fact, a minivan. My question for you is this.

[00:05:30] Are we likely to see other auto manufacturers follow Kia's lead and finally make a good-looking minivan, or is this a one-off? I think you guys mentioned seeing something at the New York Auto Show this year. Just wanted your take. Thanks a bunch. So what do we think about minivans? Yes. Yeah. That's a funny thing that he brings up the Kia Carnival, because my neighbor actually just got a Kia Carnival, and we have a similar conversation where she's like, this actually looks good. I was like, oh, you got a minivan. Nice. And she's like, no, actually, it's an MPV.

[00:06:00] It's closer to an SUV. And so, you know, we joke about this all the time, because the Kia Carnival does sort of have some SUV-looking characteristics. Sure, yeah. And I like that about it. My neighbor likes that about it. And it seems like they're moving away from that traditional minivan-type look. But that said, even... I like minivans. They're so versatile, as we just talked about in the previous question. Like, they're so useful. Yeah. Yeah, I know.

[00:06:28] Just like I was saying, going back to concepts like that 1999 caravan concept, just thinking how that's pretty cool. But yeah, you'd like to see... I think there'd come up other concepts, renderings. You would see, like, the Hellcat version of that. That would be awesome. Or you'd see someone lowering an Odyssey or something like that. It's like, once you see... I guess usually the better-looking ones are a little lower to the ground. And, you know, but yeah, it's a novel idea.

[00:06:55] But in the end, I go, I'm just going to get a car that's like, you know, a sports car. If I want a, you know, a high-performance minivan, I'll... Sure. Wasn't there that Pacifica at the auto show that was kind of cool? Chrysler had a lifted Pacifica. I think they called it the Grizzly. But it was on all-terrain tires. And I think it had some racks and maybe like a ladder on the side or the back, something like that. And it looked neat. I don't know if it was actually functional. There wasn't a lot of, like, fender to tire clearance and bumper to tire clearance. So I think as things would turn and articulate, you might run into some trouble.

[00:07:24] But it certainly was neat looking. And I certainly think it kind of stirs the imagination a little bit. I, however, I still love minivans. I think the Kia does look cool. And my argument is the wheels. I think most minivans don't have great-looking wheels. I think if you put a really nice set of wheels on a minivan, you'd have, like, a cool family hauler that, you know, you wouldn't be embarrassed pulling up places in. And, of course, we know minivans ride well and they move people better than really anything. So, yeah. Yeah, I think hopefully there's a market for minivans, cool-looking minivans.

[00:07:53] Maybe even performance or fast minivans would be awesome. But I don't know. All the renderings I see, it's usually larger, cool-looking wheels with, you know, some body kit on there. But put a Hellcat motor in it. Yeah. I mean, I think they should, right? Yeah. That's probably the way to sell a few extra, I think. And they put that motor in everything else, so why not? Yeah. Minivan, right? All right, perfect. Our next question is from Andrew in Oklahoma. Andrew says, hi, my name is Andrew, and I'm 13 years old. I really like your show. My questions are the following.

[00:08:22] Recently, I heard that Lucid is losing a lot of money. What marks the difference between the upstarts of Rivian and Lucid? They both have cool cars, impressive range, and unique features. But why is Rivian prospering when Lucid is not? Also, what career should I pursue if I want to be a CR vehicle tester? So first, let's take the Lucid Rivian thing. Yeah. What do we think about that? I think in terms of reliability, Steve, you can back me on this. It's not looking so great, right? Well, that goes for both of them. Exactly. Yeah.

[00:08:49] I want to say I love how Andrew submitted this question in the first place. He's like, this is like all of us when we were 13. Exactly. And I love that. Yeah, yeah. But back to Rivian, their reliability, not great. Owner satisfaction, very good. Lucid reliability, also not great. But in terms of their financials, neither company is printing money per se. Like Rivian's, I don't know that Rivian has been profitable yet. They just are backed by Amazon because they build those commercial vans as well.

[00:09:18] So they have a lot of money coming in. And I think that's where Rivian has excelled is they've diversified their lineup a little bit and moved into commercial versus just retail. Then they have the R2 coming. And I think, I mean, I don't know personally, but it seems like financially their company is probably dependent on the uptake of this R2 and R3X coming soon. So hopefully that will work out. Lucid is just, you know, they're the only, the only person they're going after is someone

[00:09:48] who's looking for a luxury EV. That's a tough market. So yeah, yeah. No wonder it's not doing well financially, but good observation, Andrew, for, for both of these really. Yeah, I think that's great observation. And we know Rivian is building a new factory to build this R2 and that costs a lot of money. So they have money coming in, there's money going out. And Steve, I agree with you. I think the, the Lucids are like ultra luxury. Not that the Rivians aren't. I mean, they're certainly expensive, but you know, they've got the off-road thing going with them, whether people use it or not, but we know people like it, right?

[00:10:16] We just tested all those soft road trims of the common SUVs and arguably they look better. We all thought they looked pretty cool and they still function pretty well. And I hate to bring it back to minivans, but the Lucid Gravity is kind of a minivan. Yeah. All it needs is a sliding door and it's pretty much a minivan. If you want a good looking minivan, you make it look like that kind of, right? Exactly. So yeah. And now what career advice would we have for someone who wants to test cars the way we do? Yeah. So I don't know from, from my perspective, there's a lot of paths you can take, you know,

[00:10:45] you can either be into dynamics, something that I was into. And I learned that, you know, once I started driving that I was passionate about that or good at that. So I started autocrossing and then I was like, wow, you know, then I did track days and then it just really evolved from there. From there, I start working on my own vehicle, doing these modifications. Now I'm seeing what changes and actually the impact that happens on the vehicle and dynamically everything like that. So you can go that route.

[00:11:10] You can go a route similar to Mike, you here, you know, you can be just passionate about working on cars, cars in general, and just have a very ton of knowledge, especially about fixing cars, repairing how they work. So many areas. Or you can be like Maddie behind me. You go to college for human factors, you know, you get a degree in that and you can just be an expert in usability. It's kind of fine. That's so important now. Yeah. These things are huge in the tech side. You can go to computers and have the screens and all that. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:11:40] It's a much larger door that you can walk through to get into this industry or even within testing here. So really it's, I guess at the end, it's like find something that really drives you that, you know, that you're passionate about, makes you happy and really kind of obsess over that. And then, you know, one day you could be sitting here with us. And then, I mean, on Steve, your side, you're a data guy, which is all the stuff that we create when we test cars. I didn't. Yeah. You can be a data guy too. I mean, yeah. You do have to crunch the numbers that you collect too and analyze them and see what the

[00:12:10] data, you know, what story is the data telling. So I, computer science or data analytics programming that track. And you could apply that to cars as well. Oh, you can argue your job. You know, you're getting everything, you know, you're getting all the data. This is everything we're producing. And then, you know, you're responsible for compiling it, sending it off to the places it needs to go. But yeah. Exactly. Ton of stuff to do.

[00:12:37] So many components and like various aspects of a car that you really, it's, it's a well rounded industry where you really need a lot of professionals in different aspects to bring it all together. Yeah. Yeah. And I would say being well-rounded yourself, being able to kind of do more than one thing. And I would even think about the things that aren't so obvious. Like knowing how to use spreadsheets and things like that. For the audience, just the other day, we have a digital keyboard that logs all the cars, who's in what mileage. And I pretty much nuked the thing the other day.

[00:13:06] And it was like 930 in the morning when everyone's kind of doing their thing. So in a panic, I called Steve. I'm like, can you fix the keyboard? I don't know what I did. And Steve had it fixed in like two minutes. So, you know, know how to use those things to end up like me. That's very important. Yeah. Also one thing too, is just getting tons of driving experience. If you're passionate about cars, you're driving different cars, getting in and out of your friends' cars, it's just like, you know, you got to live and breathe it if it's something you want to pursue. Very good advice. Thank you guys. All right. Our next question is from Robin from Parts Unknown.

[00:13:35] Robin says, when I had a Tesla Model 3, the company recommended always plugging the car into charge at the end of the day. They've never gotten a definitive answer on a question from their BMW dealer regarding their 2024 iX. Assuming one isn't planning a lot of driving the next day, what are the pros and cons of taking the Tesla approach versus letting the battery go to a lower level of charge before plugging it in? So an interesting EV question, right? And this is always kind of the debate. How do you maintain the battery? Yeah. I don't know, Mike. How do you maintain the battery?

[00:14:02] Well, so I looked this up because the right answer is always refer to the owner's manual, right? Go off of what the manufacturer says. So in our test program, we had a 2023 BMW iX. So I pulled the owner's manual and basically what BMW says is 80% is sort of the target value for day-to-day driving, right? So you can set your charge limit to that 80% and that allows just a little bit of a buffer so the battery's not always maxed out. But they go on to say that over time, the performance of the life of one of these high

[00:14:32] performance batteries is what they call them does degrade. And the more you use it and the more you charge it, specifically fast charging it, the more it can degrade. So you kind of want to manage that. You don't want to fast charge on a day-to-day basis. So you're better off slow charging at home, things like that. But they say ideally 10% to 80% when possible. Then of course, if you need more, you're going on a trip, charge it to 100. And if you do go below 10, it's not the end of the world. You know, we don't know from our highway range test that most of these cars will go past zero. You don't want to do it.

[00:14:59] I wouldn't recommend it because it kind of puts you in a situation for terms of recovery of the vehicle. But 10 to 80 for day-to-day use is what BMW claims. And I would say that seems pretty reasonable based off of what we've seen kind of with our cars and testing and things like that. That's what my phone, that's where my phone operates. I mean, yeah, generally, right? It does recommend that on your phone. Yeah. Yeah. Limit it to 80%. And most of these phones also have lithium ion batteries as well. So similar technology. You know, they don't, the phones don't have the cooling systems and things like that, the way these cars do certainly. But same idea, right? Yeah.

[00:15:28] All right. Our next question is from John, also from Parts Unknown. John says, how would the cost per mile of driving be affected if gasoline and electricity costs were normalized given the federal and state taxes on gasoline? That is, if the cost of filling an EV were adjusted to include the equivalent per gallon federal and state tax in kilowatt hours. How do the numbers compare? So that is quite the question. It is quite the question. And it's a pretty technical question.

[00:15:53] But basically, we're trying to compare apples to oranges, but in apples to apples kind of a way in terms of pricing, right? It is. And yes, you could get real into the weeds with this question, or you can kind of think about it at a higher level where if, so electric rates are different by every state. And that's why actually a friend of the podcast, Keith Berry, he wrote an article on this and said in some states, you're probably better off buying a hybrid versus an EV because the electric rates are so high.

[00:16:22] And in other states, you're better off even buying a EV because the electric rates are low and then you can fill up during certain times, off peak times. So there's so many variables to this to actually calculate an equivalent. I'm not sure how the government would tax electricity so that it is on an apples to apples basis per gallon. Just because electricity is being produced by so many different ways in every state you

[00:16:52] are and that's what regulates the electrical price. So it's a very technical question. And I tried to calculate this conceptually, but I wish I had a better exact answer with actual numbers. What a good question to think about. Like local governments are talking about doing an EV tax or even a plug-in hybrid tax or a hybrid tax for the gas that these cars are not using because normally there is the gas tax, right?

[00:17:19] And thinking about here in Connecticut, we have whatever you pay for electricity plus you have your delivery charge, which I never think about. But that can almost double your bill, at least here in the state of Connecticut. You're paying almost more for delivery charge than you are for the actual electricity. So that goes into it. But to bring it back to Keith's story, which we're going to link down in the description, there is a calculator on there. So you can actually put in what your local gas cost is, what your local electricity cost is. And then there's a slider where you can dial in the miles you drive and it will show

[00:17:47] you across all these different platforms approximately what you would spend. So you can kind of balance it out and see in your area, as of today, because obviously all these prices can change, what it would be. So that calculator is pretty handy. And it's pretty common that hybrids are the answer. It seems like they are the sweet spot for spending less money. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. If you look at it, you're like, well, you want to be on this end of the spectrum or that? And really the hybrid's falling right in the middle. Yeah. Just get a nice hybrid. Yep. All right.

[00:18:15] And Terry from St. Louis, Missouri says, it was not long ago in discussing self-driving vehicles that there was talk about the need for vehicle to vehicle and vehicle to infrastructure communication. Vehicles would know when stoplights were changing, know where other cars are, know the presence of emergency situations well in advance, et cetera. But now I hear nothing about it. I had high hopes for this technology when we were talking about it maybe five years ago.

[00:18:41] It's impressive that Terry remembers this even because they don't talk about this a lot. And the idea of cars talking to other cars or cars talking to the streetlights, it's such a good idea when you think about it. But for some reason, it never gained traction. And what happened was that the FCC originally designated the 5.9 gigahertz bandwidth to the V2X.

[00:19:06] But what happened was there was a 75 megahertz band that was allocated to V2X. And that has been now dropped to 30 megahertz. So 45 megahertz has been taken out of there. And that's not really enough for this technology to operate. Right. So while it was getting to the point where V2X was gaining traction, they cut it in half and sort of got rid of any chance of it moving into the future. So it remains to be seen what will happen.

[00:19:34] Maybe cellular will it'll get popular on cellular again. I'm not sure. But that is why you don't hear that much about it. So basically, they narrowed up the window that these cars can communicate in, right? The bandwidth where the communication can happen car to car and car to infrastructure. Yes. So it's just a very narrow window. And there's a lot of cars on the road, right? So I think it probably took the wind out of their sails, so to speak, in terms of developing this. Yeah. Being a person who loves to drive cars is very just mind-blowing.

[00:20:02] Or just to think about how, what life would be like, you know, mingling with if there's V2V and people out there that are not, you know, communicating V2V. Yeah. And how that actually... You'd have to have everybody on board, right? Because if you have one road car that's out there doing something that the rest are not... Yeah. Or a pack of them out there. Yeah.

[00:20:33] And we're getting, I think, a thumbs up for Maddie. She's watching from her desk. And I don't think we said anything wrong here, so we might be good to go. All right. Well, I think that's going to do it for this all questions episode of Talking Cars. I want to thank our producer, David Abrams. It was filmed and edited by Andrew Belise and Anatoly Shumsky. If you want to get your questions in, email them. Written questions, video questions to talkingcars at iCloud.com. If we select your questions for one of the podcasts, we'll send you out some kind of a shirt,

[00:21:00] whatever we have in stock at the front desk unavailable. Dave will get those sent out to you. And I also want to bring up our audience watching on YouTube. They might notice there's a green fundraiser little clickable icon next to all of our videos. And what that is, is Consumer Reports is a nonprofit. So we operate on pretty thin margins. And if a viewer wants to help contribute to doing the important work that we do, they can click on that fundraiser button and make a donation. And of course, we certainly appreciate it. That's going to do it for us. Thank you so very much for watching and hanging out with us. And we'll see you next week.